Magic Johnson: President Of Basketball Operations (Magic Says No Fatties Pg. 34)

Discussion in 'Lakers Discussion' started by DOAKLEY8, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. Kenzo

    Kenzo - Lakers Starter -

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    Mandatory BF in the single digits range is BS if you ask me. I get being fast, strong and in shape but...
     
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  2. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff LB Facebook Editor

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    [​IMG]

    Why yes, I did copy them. All of them. :Laugh:
     
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  3. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    This is an arbitrary number, body fat % calculations are also incredibly inconsistent and reveal very little about fitness. Check some YouTube videos on how widely supposedly good methods of checking body fat are wildly inconsistent. Then look at a Body issue from ESPN (or just look at athletes) and see that different physiques are effective for different goals. Magic's mindset is so 80s.
     
  4. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    I just saw this - after posting magic is stuck in the 80s. So I definitely agree with the general sentiment.
     
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  5. ZenMaster

    ZenMaster - Lakers 6th Man -

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    OK.

    I've never said this (out loud, at least, but alone, at nig... I digress), but you sir, are a national treasure.

    And this is, without any doubt, your greatest work.

    This will go viral.
     
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  6. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with Zen's main point here, the specific number of 7-8% is silly. As far as I know that might be fine for some pro athletes, and unhealthy for others, part of it would seem to be body type. I understand what Magic is saying, he wants our players to work on their bodies and be in the best shape of their lives. A number of them do need to work on their NBA bodies and conditioning, we got ourworked far too often this season. The body fat number is silly though, it's like he threw out a number in hopes the players will try to reach it and get their % as low as possible, and I doubt they're that stupid or easily motivated or they'd have done this already.
     
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  7. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    BMI is notoriously difficult to judge based off of individual body types. Mostly because without extensive biological testing it's very difficult to get an accurate fat to muscle ratio. The body fat percentage that you see on that board is likely an estimate.

    What @ZenMaster says is accurate: a blanket statement on body fat percentage is incorrect. If I'm being honest though, I think Magic just doesn't mean what he's saying. It sounds like a classic answer from someone who doesn't necessarily know nutrition, but knows some verbiage. I think what he meant was, "we want everyone to get in here healthier and stronger than they've ever been." That just manifests itself as a body fat answer.

    Guys like Ingram and Clarkson honestly shouldn't ever worry about their body fat percentage. They can put on some fat actually because it'll help with their muscle growth. Not a lot mind you, but a bit. This body fat concern is important for guys like Russell, Randle, and Zubac who all could be much better off. Randle has notoriously short bursts of energy. Russell could be much stronger. Zubac can lose a lot of fat and gain more muscle.

    I also think it's more of a mindset than an ultimatum. See who comes back into the picture with greater focus and dedication. If someone comes back to camp and they're as out of shape as they were the year before, then they're clearly not dedicated to improving. If they come back and they're clearly in better shape, then they're ready to go and we can trust them to work harder going forward.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 7:03 AM
  8. trodgers

    trodgers Administrator Staff Member

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    I still think that the mention of body fat is a step too far away from what we should really be interested in.

    Randle's energy is likely about diet and training. Not about body fat per se.

    Russell's strength is likely about diet and training. Not about body fat per se.

    Zu's shape is about never lifting and having a teenager diet. Not about body fat per se.

    If any one of them should worry at all about body fat, it's Zu. But perhaps even he shouldn't. Karl Malone played an iron man career with lots of weight on his frame.

    On one hand, we use body fat as a proxy for "in shape," but it's not even a good proxy. Lots of lean people are in terrible shape. Lots of high BMI people are in incredible shape - like NFL running backs. Lots of higher body fat % people are in incredible shape - like linemen. Even in big guys like Zubac, the concern isn't about how much fat he has. It's about whether he can play effectively without too much damage to his joints. Z-bo is really good at basketball, but he's not going to score well on these metrics. There are lots of guys with good physiques who can't get out of the D-league. I'm definitely over analyzing now, but Magic should think more before speaking. When you're the face of a franchise, you have to be more thoughtful.
     
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  9. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff LB Facebook Editor

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    It's funny how that is determined. Some of it is content, some is timing, but some of it is also target market. I confess I haven't figured it out yet. Of all the stuff I've made, the top two retweeted were:

    (After Kobe said he was driving to the hoop like a light skinned dude)
    [​IMG]

    (After Byron was fired)
    [​IMG]

    some of the funniest stuff (I thought) has gotten crickets, so I openly confess I don't understand how it all works

    But that's ok, because I really do it for our site here, and for fun. But thanks!

    ***Posted several hours ago on twitter, and copied to several with large followings. 2 retweets so far, so this was primarily in response to going viral. I think the Lebron with crying Jordan tears got like two retweets too lol. However, if it makes me laugh, it makes me happy. I'm just not near as cool as I think I am lol.***

    I'm also currently in the Philippines, so when I post, it's probably buried under 1,000's of tweets by the time people get to the content. You just never know.
     
  10. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers MVP -

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    :Laugh:

    Magic's lost it. Going the Boron path to being hated by team and sucking the fun out of the game that Luke put back into it.

    Yi never stayed to protect the "younglings". sirron .... you gotta do it!

    :Noddingyes:
     
  11. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff LB Facebook Editor

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    How would you see this used differently for Magic?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles - Lakers Starter -

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    We really need the draft lottery to come around. This is a pretty weird conversation to be lasting this long. I know it's the offseason and all, but man. Can we just all agree that everyone needs to come into camp looking like Chris Hemsworth?
     
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  13. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers MVP -

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    I dunno. Honestly I'm more concerned about the Boron hard a** approach to everything sucking the joy out of what Luke has tried to revive with the game for his team. He's still coach but obviously these guys (Magic and Rob) sitting up there watching every day and with this kind of thoughtless (from what I'm reading here) edict and pressure about BMI index for everyone ..... it changes a lot of the vibe. Sure they need to be in top shape but I want to see it from them loving the game and wanting to run through walls for coach Walton. Not from constant fear and the puke barrels again on the sidelines. Just knee jerk thoughts. I blame [​IMG]


    Actually my point was you need to protect them now from Magic if he goes overboard with the hard nosed old school crap. Bust his a** in the media like you used to do with Boron.

    Or not. :p

    Sending that new gif out was an awesome start. Props!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 9:01 AM
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  14. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Zen admitted he's a hater and I think it's hyperbole to react like this request from management is a bad thing.

    Again, Magic has never been all that eloquent. He's an intelligent person, but he doesn't have a strong way with words. He's not as articulate as say Rob Pelinka is. The idea that demanding excellence in conditioning is somehow negative is something I can't wrap my head around.

    The ultimatum isn't even about the body fat percentage as much as it is about their work ethic. I guarantee you if Randle and Russell come in to camp with the same calculable BMI, but obviously stronger and leaner bodies there won't be some arbitrary repercussions. It's about whether or not the young kids can hold themselves to a higher standard and that's a great thing. Some of these players do need to come into camp with a better body fat percentage. I'm thinking about Deng, Zubac, Randle, and Russell. Nance, Mozgov, Ennis, Tarik, and Nick (if he's still around) can get leaner and stronger too. Clarkson and Ingram could probably put a little fat on and still be okay, but their metabolisms are different from the rest of the team's.

    It's unhealthy to make a blanket statement like "everyone should be under 10% body fat", but it's not wrong that they should be better than they are. Zubac at 18% is awful for basically any type of athlete and certainly awful for a basketball player. There's no reason guys like Randle and Russell couldn't shed a couple percentage points from 12 to 10 or something like that and still be in a healthy weight range.

    Magic and Rob are absolutely on the right track here. Any kid who shows up to camp and isn't in better shape than when he left is a problem. Any kid who gets here and thinks camp is a time for him to play into shape is a problem. They've got three months to improve themselves and I absolutely love that they're being put in this position. I'm not worried about the specific numbers, that's just some target you give so that the kids take it seriously.

    As for taking shots at Magic's BMI, I mean 1st of all sports science is a completely different animal than it was 30 years ago. It's changing constantly and it's certainly grown far beyond anything Magic (or anyone) in the early 80s knew about. And 2nd of all Magic played at an elite level as soon as his sneakers hit the hardwood. If Russell and Randle had lead us to a ring in these first two years, I wouldn't be so concerned about their physical shape. Instead they've lead us to less than 50 wins in two seasons and I'm questioning not just their conditioning, but their mentality and their heart as well.
     
  15. ZenMaster

    ZenMaster - Lakers 6th Man -

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    Yeah, it might seem like me nitpicking, but my fear is that we didn't fire Byron. We let him go on a sabbatical, to return as our Head of Basketball Operations.
     
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  16. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't see that. We've got Luke in charge and the FO has been resolute in their support for him.

    I don't want foxholes anymore, but I also don't to mollycoddle our kids and let them think 20 wins a year is an acceptable outcome. We've got to hold them to a higher standard and they've got to hold themselves to a higher standard. Once they start winning games, they can have as much fun as they want. The Warriors have a blast, but they're also winning 65 games a year. To get there, we've got to improve and I think this is just a way to encourage them to do so.

    I won't defend Magic's actual words because it really seems like that manager who doesn't know the specifics so they throw around words that they think sound right. It would be like me going up to a computer coder and saying, "control, alt, delete! Am I right?" I think Magic's head is in the right place he just doesn't know how to say it.
     
  17. ZenMaster

    ZenMaster - Lakers 6th Man -

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    I hope you are right. My personal experience says you aren't.
     
  18. karacha

    karacha Moderator Staff Member

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    I do agree that this is an arbitrary number. Look:

    Zubac does not need to worry about his body fat. He needs to grow, lift, eat good food, work on his post moves. He's a 7-1 center, and he needs to be able to play significant minutes, but his body fat % is irrelevant. It could be 15% if he has enough musclemass to bang with centers in this league and his stamina is solid.

    Ingram. He does even need to lose weight to lower body fat %. He's too skinny and has no real muscle mass. Once he adds few hard lbs of muscle, his body fat % will go down automatically.

    Russ. Completely irrelevant for the way he plays.

    Randle - stamina, focus. Work on midrange jumper and don't be a black hole on offense sometimes. Again, body fat % doesn't mean anything to him, except if it really wrecks his stamina. I'm not sure that it does.

    Calderon has low body fat, good for him. But how does that exactly help anyone on the team? Why not simply say: "we want our players to show up for camp in shape, ready to play heavy minutes when we need them."


    Other than that - I just looked at those whiteboards. Yeah, that looks about right, although the measurements are not always precise. You don't need someone like Young to be at 8% BF. Why? He looks like a basketball player and is extremely mobile and athletic. Robinson is a freak, plain and simple. I'm at ~10.5% right now, probably getting to slightly sub 10% for the beach this summer and most people would think I look ripped for a guy my age (but I would not be able to play full court bball with these guys for more than 10 minutes) . So, they are focusing on these numbers too much. They don't mean anything to a professional athlete. You're either able to play at the high level or you're not.

    [​IMG]

    APPROVED THIS MESSAGE BTW.
     
  19. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers MVP -

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  20. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    The only thing I disagree with is Russell and Randle being meaningless in terms of body fat percentage. It's far from meaningless for them. Randle's is too high if he's getting this tired all the time. I've spoken to some Kentucky fans and they said this is something he's always dealt with and that's unacceptable to me for a professional athlete. It's your job to run that floor, go do it. At 23 years old he should be able to run all day.

    I agree that Zubac doesn't need to be in the single digits, but 18% is still bad no matter what. He could change his body dramatically this summer for the better.

    Other than that, the argument again comes to the point: I think we're both right and that this board is getting hung up on the words Magic used. You and I and Zen are right that the BMI argument is a poor one because it doesn't take into account musculature, ideal mobility, and because not everyone needs to have a low body fat percentage to be in great shape. I think Zen meant it as a shot, but the point stands: Magic wasn't the most cut up guy on the court but he did fine. The key is he did fine and our guys didn't.

    The takeaway from this shouldn't be getting hung up on BMI and BF%, it should be that we're holding the kids accountable to improving themselves this summer. Last summer we heard from Clarkson and Russell and Randle that they were (in no order): better conditioned, better shooters, smarter, more aggressive, more explosive, etc, etc, etc. Did it really seem like Randle was in better shape than he was his rookie year? He may have been stronger, but that doesn't help. Did Russell or Clarkson really look stronger and more explosive? Not really. And none of them really shot the ball from distance a lot better.

    I don't know. I still don't understand how this could really be construed as a net negative.
     

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