Gun Violence Thread

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion and Philosophy' started by therealdeal, Jun 14, 2016.

  1. Azndude2190

    Azndude2190 - Rookie -

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    Well Christina Grimmie's brother tackled her killer and he had a gun. That took tremendous courage, so I do think people would be more confident against someone with a knife.And in general too. If I was in that Orlando club, 10/10 times I would much rather prefer the guy be holding a kitchen knife, then a AR-15.
     
  2. revgen

    revgen - Lakers 6th Man -

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    There's a difference between blind courage and confidence. The guy with the knife has the upper hand. Unless you have combat training on how to disarm a person with a knife, I don't see how you can confidently tackle that person.
     
  3. Azndude2190

    Azndude2190 - Rookie -

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    Ya but I mean all attackers to some degree will have the element of surprise no matter the weapon, I guess what I should have said was that If you are the dude close to someone who is being attacked, I think you will more likely find the courage in you to tackle the person and disarm him/her vs a person who has a gun shooting at multiple people in succession at a distance.
     
  4. revgen

    revgen - Lakers 6th Man -

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    Sure, but there's a reason why we don't have "Save a life. Turn in your knife" campaigns here in the USA. Knife perps get shot. Either by police or by armed citizens.
     
  5. revgen

    revgen - Lakers 6th Man -

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    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36550304

    So a British member of parliament is now dead after a wacko with a homemade gun shot her. You can do all the "gun control" you want. People who are determined to kill will find a way to do it. So what option do law-abiding citizens in the UK have to protect themselves? Nothing.
     
  6. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    Our society is getting more and more isolated from each other. People sit at home and read Youtube comments and Reddit for all their social interaction. All labor is behind a keyboard. People witness other people's Facebook status and question why their lives are so horrible. We are a depressed nation. We are a lonely nation. People are being "shamed" constantly for their looks, intelligence, hobbies...People aren't connecting the way they used to. That's why there are mass shootings, suicides, etc.
     
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  7. Helljumper

    Helljumper - Lakers 6th Man -

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    That's not an issue of our nation then, but of our times. There's no way around technological advancement, and quite frankly I think you're exaggerating things. People weren't being "shamed" for their looks/intelligences/hobbies before? People used to connect more before? I just don't think that's true. That's nostalgia and bias for the past. Technology and social media definitely have aspects that isolate us, but it also brings people together like never before. Before, you'd be called a nerd if you liked a certain video game (as an example). Now you can find an online community of people who like it just as much as you do, and play that game with friends/family across the country. If Reddit/Twitter/YouTube/Facebook ceased to exist, do you think people would suddenly leave their houses to hang out with other people in person all the time? No, they'd just sit around and watch cable TV instead. I think it's vastly oversimplifying the problem to blame mass shootings and suicide on the increased incorporation of computers and technology into our daily lives.
     
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  8. Helljumper

    Helljumper - Lakers 6th Man -

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    Yes, gun control is flawed because a truly determined whacko will find illegal ways to obtain a gun, or use some other sort of deadly homemade weapon.

    But I'm genuinely curious; how many shootings or violent crimes have been successfully stopped by a nearby citizen who happened to have a gun?

    I don't have stats to back this up, but I feel like the amount of guns you'd have to disperse to the public in order to give them the power to occasionally stop violent crimes ... would be offset by the increased amount of violent crimes due to having so many guns out in public.
     
  9. Barnstable

    Barnstable Supreme Fuzzler of Lakersball.com Staff Member

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    Right now, approximately 5-10 per year out of 30,000 incidents of mass shootings
     
  10. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    whoa whoa. That number doesn't sound right. What is considered a mass shooting?

    http://www.vox.com/a/mass-shootings-calendar-june-2016

    That link says 133 this year (still a lot but not 30,000 a lot). Their criteria is 4 or more people shot (not necessarily killed) not including the gunman.

    Also of note: carriers permits are a pain in the a** to get, especially in heavily populated areas. It's virtually impossible in California unless you're a security officer of some sort.
     
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  11. Punk-101

    Punk-101 - Lakers 6th Man -

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    I like this guy's dry sarcasm.
     
  12. revgen

    revgen - Lakers 6th Man -

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    There are already millions of guns and bullets in the USA. They are not going to disappear the instant private gun ownership is banned. Taliban troops shot 19th century British muskets at our soldiers. Guns can last a long time if properly stored. And as long as they are available on the black market, organized criminals or deranged murderers will find a way to get their hands on them.

    Also, as RD has already explained. Law abiding citizens are rarely allowed to carry weapons outside their home. Until that changes, this argument doesn't hold much merit. Even if they are allowed by law to carry, the properties that these crimes take place at are usually "gun-free zones" like schools.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
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  13. Barnstable

    Barnstable Supreme Fuzzler of Lakersball.com Staff Member

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    I'm factoring in "ghetto" shootings that never get counted
     
  14. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Well that's hard to quantify because a) that's an estimate! and b) those guns are by a vast majority purchased and handled illegally. Stricter gun control laws aren't going to do much to stem that violence.
     
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  15. Barnstable

    Barnstable Supreme Fuzzler of Lakersball.com Staff Member

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    Those aren't a factor for the question though. He was just asking how many shootings or violent crimes have been successfully stopped by a nearby citizen who happened to have a gun? It is an estimate of course, but it's not really coming to any conclusions about gun laws. It's just an answer to the question.
     
  16. Barnstable

    Barnstable Supreme Fuzzler of Lakersball.com Staff Member

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  17. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I understand that, but I just have no idea how close of an estimate that actually is. I don't think there's been 30,000 mass shootings in our country so far this year by ^ that definition of 4 or more people were injured. Has there been 30,000 incidents of "someone was injured" or "a gun was fired" yeah probably but going from 133 to 30,000 I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around those numbers.
     
  18. Barnstable

    Barnstable Supreme Fuzzler of Lakersball.com Staff Member

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    I'll try to find you the stats later.
     
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  19. Barnstable

    Barnstable Supreme Fuzzler of Lakersball.com Staff Member

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  20. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay so I just need some clarity.

    That 30,000 number includes deaths from war or battle? Accidental deaths? Suicides? Or is just solely murders/homicides? The chart doesn't actually say how many people die, just the number of attacks.

    That Washington Post article cites a sub-reddit. I'm not saying it's a bad source, but I'm taking it with a bit of a grain of salt. Just hard to trust the source 100%. That being said, I went through it and they seem legit. They certainly seem to include any and all incidents they hear about which includes urban violence as long as it's reported. I'm aware there's a lot of violence that goes unreported, but I'm not sure it's as high as 30,000 people murdered...

    Now if it includes suicides and accidental deaths (say an irresponsible parent or something), then it falls into what I'm okay with in a psych eval. A psych eval should keep a lot of guns out of those people's hands.
     
  21. Savory Griddles

    Savory Griddles Moderator Staff Member

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    I disagree. People were not shamed to the degree they are now. The anonymity of sitting behind a keyboard and unloading on someone didn't exist before. If you shamed someone...you took a chance on getting punched in the face.

    There have been many studies on the damage Facebook has on people because it creates a narcissistic society with a warped sense of reality. "Betty" looks at her life and sees all her problems, then goes to Facebook where people only post their happy moments and she starts to believe her "horrible" life is worthless while everyone else has all their s*** together. It's not nostalgia. It's just fact. Families don't eat at the dinner table near as often or as a family. There are too many other distractions out there. People can sit in the same room and be together, but they are in different little worlds. Do you know how often I walk by a group people (teenagers, college kids, adults, any age really) that are sitting in public together at the same table, but all of them are on their own phone as if they are by themselves in a dark little room? I'm at a restaurant and the parents are talking, but all their kids are on phones or tablets just so they will be quiet. Being in the same room with someone is far different than being social with someone. That didn't use to happen.

    The Orlando shooter seems to have gotten most of his influence from faceless people on the web. Do you really think a man living in America could have become that radicalized had he not had access to these types of people or teachings? Same with the average crazy white guy who is filled with hate. The internet absolutely fuels the fire. Heck, I'm not in danger of going koo-koo, but I will admit that I get really ticked off reading things on the internet, getting in discussions on the internet where I can only read someone's words as opposed to having an actual face to face interaction to truly gauge the full meaning in their words. Do you get in name calling flame wars with people over a movie or something if you are talking to that person face to face over a beer? No. But it happens when you're on a message board drinking Mountain Dew and a***layer666 tells you Star Wars is "for queers" or some stupid crap like that.

    And I'm not banging on tech.I like tech. But there is zero doubt that it has isolated all of us from each other in a way that is obviously hurting us all. The internet and technology is amazing and can be used for great things like Lakersball or playing games with friends or keeping up with distant family members. But no one uses all this tech just for that. People always end up stumbling onto 4chan or some crap like that.
     
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