D'Angelo Russell Discussion (p. 462: TRADED TO BROOKLYN!)

Discussion in 'NBA Discussion' started by The Original 81, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. TIME

    TIME Moderator Staff Member

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    If you offered me a choice of either Dlo or Josh Hart at this exact point in their respective careers knowing everything we know about their talent, play and character I take Hart without a second of hesitation.
     
  2. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers All Star -

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    minority doesn't mean wrong.

    and if you'd been paying attention, the entire argument surrounds the incredible odds against using cap space on lebron and paul george.

    even if i granted that hart was better than russell (which i won't), it wouldn't matter, because it was the 30th pick, not hart, that was received in that trade. had we drafted someone useless, would the trade have made less sense at the time?
     
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  3. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers Legend -

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    Well in my opinion and confirmed in most cases here by others I respect as much as I definitely do you in basketball takes .... you are in this case. It's like you have this vague alternative that you never flesh out with specifics as to how what they accomplished in one fell swoop with that deal could have been done better.

    Again .... then when with your hypothesis? Compared to what we actually and factually accomplished with whom we were able to select in the draft and how much better for the system Luke ran this year wanting us to show improvement, than Lopez coming and replacing Mozgov and his albatross contract ... in 2 birds with one stone fashion.

    "even if i granted that hart was better than russell (which i won't)"

    Again .... Why? You enamored with his continued 3 years running lazy turnovers, per those who watched his games this year? (I did not) His inconsistency still vs the opposite from Hart? His strength and stellar defense? Shooting .... you just ignore the numbers? His championship pedigree and winner mentality? The only thing he seems better at is his handle and a wider repertoire of shots. But please... you explain it? All of the above in your alternative strategic arm chairing to what actually took place?

    :KobeConfused:
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  4. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I definitely understand your take, but not this part.

    This is robbing the Lakers scouting department of respect that they earned with their drafting. If you won't grant that they traded for Kuzma/Lopez over Russell/Mozgov, then you have to at least credit them with Hart/Bryant/Lopez over Russell/Mozgov.

    If you don't value Hart as highly as Russell, that's fine, that's debatable, but the FO shouldn't be held responsible for hypotheticals when they came through with a stellar draft.
     
  5. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff LB Facebook Editor

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    But, what have you done for me lately draft department?

    You've done nothing for like 9 months.

    [​IMG]

    -- Signed,

    Typical fan
     
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  6. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers All Star -

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    eh, this level of success at that stage in the draft is unsustainable. i do believe the lakers are better at this than other teams, but better doesn't mean you always hit. it means you hit on like, 1 out of 3 instead of 1 out of 5 like most teams.
     
  7. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    Why discredit their work?

    Since 2014 they've had 11 draft picks and of those picks the worst one is Anthony Brown. The rest are Julius Randle (#7), Jordan Clarkson (#46), D'Angelo Russell (#2), Larry Nance Jr. (#27), Brandon Ingram (#2), Ivica Zubac (#32), Lonzo Ball (#2), Kyle Kuzma (#27), Josh Hart (#30), and Thomas Bryant (#42).

    Even if Zubac and Bryant don't work out, that's a scouting success rate of 72.7% NBA players, most of whom are coming from the late 1st/early 2nd round which is damn near impossible to land a contributor year after year. The scouting department deserves more credit than "well they might f*** this up one day" and certainly deserve more credit than "this might not have happened" when they haven't f***ed up yet and nothing bad happened. They have been stellar and the trade that acquired Hart/Bryant/Lopez was a good trade.
     
  8. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers All Star -

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    well, you chose an advantageous time cutoff--what constitutes "this scouting department"?

    as for the implicit message: i'm comfortable betting the odds. SA couldn't miss for a while, but they've missed plenty.

    side note: if all we do is base our decisions on the 2014-2018 drafts, one might argue that we should have just traded all the #2s for 3 picks in the 20s each year!

    and finally: it's ironic that we're propping up the scouts in a thread wherein everyone but me agrees that we drafted a crapbag with the #2 overall pick.
     
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  9. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I never said D'Angelo wasn't talented, he's just not my cup of tea. I quickly admitted I was wrong on the kid's talent level, the FO saw the talent that I didn't and drafted accordingly.

    Ryan West/Jesse Buss have been in charge of scouting since roughly 2014 while Ryan has been involved in scouting since 2009. Jesse Buss has been elevated to assistant general manager since 2016 or so. How far back do you need to go to admit they've done a great job? You can go back 10 years and they've still done admirably considering their draft position.

    If they'd kept their picks in 2009 (traded to save money) they drafted Toney Douglas (29) and Patrick Beverely (42). Those are two NBA caliber players late in the draft. They also drafted the rights to Chinemelu Elonu who was an overseas prospect they didn't really want in order to save more money again. I'd call that 2/3.

    In 2010 they had only two late 2nds and got Devin Ebanks (43) and Derrick Caracter (58). You can call this 0/2 if you'd like. At least these guys saw NBA minutes though which is uncommon for their draft spots, especially Caracter.

    In 2011 they again had only late 2nd round picks and still got Darius Morris (41), Andrew Goudelock (46), Chukwudiebere Maduabum (56), and Ater Majok (58). I'm inclined to say this is 2/4, but I'll call it 1/4 if you'd prefer. Goudelock and Morris both played multiple seasons in the NBA as 2nd round picks, again rare.

    In 2012 they had just one pick, the last pick, and got Robert Sacre (60) who played 4 seasons in the NBA and started games for us. That is a win. 1/1.

    In 2013 again only one pick in the late second round and got Ryan Kelly (48). I'd consider this somewhat of a win, similar to Morris, since he played NBA minutes as a 48th pick in the draft which is very rare. I'll call it a loss though for argument's sake.

    That takes us to the 8/11 from before. At worst the scouting department since 2009 (when the current FO started to take shape) is 10/20 (not giving credit to Beverley and Douglas) and at best they're 13/22 over nearly 10 years with 61% 2nd round picks. That's somewhere between a 50% and 59% success rate which far exceeds your 20-33% estimates. That is a phenomenal accomplishment given that you agree it's difficult to hit on late 1sts/early 2nds.

    I'm not sure why you feel the need to tear down possibly the strongest part of our FO to fit your argument. The fact is we've been a great drafting team for years and we should appreciate that. This argument is also so macro it's missing the trees for the forest. This idea that the trade conceptually was wrong doesn't matter if it resulted in a positive outcome, which it has. We've gained flexibility, obtained at least one great young asset (Hart or Kuzma), and expelled pieces that either didn't fit (Russell) or didn't want to-and shouldn't- be here (Mozgov).
     
  10. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers All Star -

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    i'm about process over outcome, ironically. #hinkielives
     
  11. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I understand that, but even then the process worked too. We achieved great things with that trade. If we don't sign anybody, that deal is a solid B just based on what we accomplished so far. If we sign someone it's an A+ move and Pelinka deserves Executive of the Year honors.
     
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  12. abeer3

    abeer3 - Lakers All Star -

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    we're not going to agree, simply because i don't think any plan involving cap space is an A+ plan. even if it works out, it wasn't a great plan.
     
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  13. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers Legend -

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  14. LTLakerFan

    LTLakerFan - Lakers Legend -

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    Would you have preferred Mozgov on the books still heading into free agency? And on the team all year again instead of having Lopez? Moz couldn't even get off the bench in Brooklyn. Lopez was for us and may be again next year a solid big man 5 who can defend decently and play down low and shoot the 3 ball. Still not understanding. When the heck were we supposed to attempt to get out from under Mozgov's contract?
     
  15. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

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    I can’t believe an argument about this trade is still going on. :D How do you guys not tire of this? It’s like two ancient gods locked in eternal battle, but about D’Angelo freakin’ Russell. “He was talented!”. “But we dumped Mozgov, got a 1st round pick, AND a corner all-star center in Lopez!”. Lather, rinse, repeat. Personaliy, I convinced myself in that mock argument it was a great trade.
     
  16. KareemtheGreat33

    KareemtheGreat33 - Lakers All Star -

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    plus Russell was an a** hole nobody liked
     
  17. KB24

    KB24 Administrator Staff Member

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    I have to say abeer, I think on this matter we might disagree even .

    Sometimes the plan is "to put yourself in a position to succeed"...it doesn't matter if it works out or not. By giving yourself a chance, you put yourself in a position to succeed.

    If we had Russell and Mozgov right now, the immidiate future would look gloomy. If FAs don't come, we still gave ourselves a chance and thats all you can ask for.

    One thing is for sure. If we had Russell and Mozgov on the team right now...chances of the Lakers making the playoffs next season would be lower in my book than they are with the position we are in now.

    Could the plan end up as a fail? yes. But in order to win championships and compete you have to take calculated risks and this is as calculated a risk as there is. Risking literally very little with a chance to hit a HR. Can't get much better than that. Low risk, high reward.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  18. sirronstuff

    sirronstuff LB Facebook Editor

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    I’m glad our scouting dept evaluated his talent well, and that we were able to use that asset to continue to build.

    Whether you agree with the trade or not, DAR was a bridge from darker days to brighter days. He may not have been in our future plans or the right fit for whatever reasons, but I still wish him well.

    I hope he grows up and doesn’t have his faults magnified in the spotlight. I hope he stays healthy and gets the most out of his talent, except when he plays us. And I hope BScott didn’t scar him for life.

    :Laugh:

    Either way, the young man is a millionaire, and will have a blessed life if he keeps good people around him.
     
  19. therealdeal

    therealdeal Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm going to think of myself as an ancient god all day. Thanks Weezy.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Weezy

    Weezy Moderator Staff Member

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    Uh oh what’ve I done. :p :eek: I enjoy the discussions between posters like abeer and yourself though, what makes this site so great. And I guess I shouldn’t be surprised people are still arguing the Russ trade not even a year later when some fans are still lamenting the Eddie Jones trade almost 20 years later.
     

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